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 What is Gods design for women?

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Arrayah



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PostSubject: What is Gods design for women?   Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:03 pm

The woman question is such an interesting one for me.
There are so many instances in the bible where woman were seemingly treated as second class citizens in the old and new testament. For instance where men have taken a number of wives, as though they are posessions. Or, when the bible talks about adultery, it talks mainly about women in adultery but not men.
Where woman are told to wear coverings to show that they are under authority (1 Cor 11:10), or where they are told not to speak in church but rather to ask their husbands to provide clarity when they are at home (1 Cor 14:34-35). To me it gives the sense that women were not as valued as a man was. And I feel that this mentality is still strong in our culture today.
I'm really interested to hear some other opinions on this, as I am battling to find my true value as a woman in our current society, especially as I am not a mother, and when I turn to the Word there seem to be so many different opinions on these scriptures, and I've seen many instances where scripture has been quoted to put a woman back in her "place".

I know that God has a special plan for me and that He loves me, but I really thirst for a better understanding on Gods view of women and His design for her in this world.

Arrayah
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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:34 pm

Hi Arrayah. Thank you for posting.

Yes. I agree with you. There is such a strange conflict that has been created in this area. I think I will raise up 2 new threads in answer to the 2 passages you speak of.... 1 Cor 11 and 1 Cor 14. They need to be fully studied out.
Quote :
There are so many instances in the bible where woman were seemingly treated as second class citizens in the old and new testament. For instance where men have taken a number of wives, as though they are posessions. Or, when the bible talks about adultery, it talks mainly about women in adultery but not men.
Culturally women were treated as second-class citizens but this is not how they were created to be in the Garden of Eden. There is a special enmity against womankind for bringing the Saviour into the world. Just as there is a special enmity against the Jews for being the people through whom He should come.

There was also only one wife given to Adam. She was made his helper. This is not a subordinate postion... just as the Holy Spirit Who is called our Helper is not suordinate to us. It is more a postition of Enabler..... completing what is missing.

The penalty for adultery being laid on the woman, and not the couple jointly, was also a cultural thing. When Jesus had a woman - who had been caught in adultery - hauled before Him, He did not condemn her, but said that anyone who had not sinned could cast the first stone. It did not take too long for the eldest to shuffle away until even the youngest man had got the message and left. Jesus was a recognised Rabbi of the time and His words rang true. Jesus is actually Creator. He did not create woman to be a lesser being than man. He created her as "fit" for him..... matched... although different. I think Adam thought her differences were wonderful!

Many things in the Bible can bring confusion when they are merely reporting how things were done. If I were to say that the sky is green would it be true? It would not be true that the sky is green.... but it would be true that I had said it was green. To report that I said the sky is green would be correct.

Chauvinism is very strong in our culture today. I agree with you. And this mindset is present in Church-life too. But there is something precious about our femininty that demands that we tackle this challenge God's way and not with a militant feminist attitude. I have had to come to this realisation and that is why I speak of it.

It is good to ask these questions, I believe, because if the Word is not rightly divided it can bring a distorted view that can affect our relationship with God.

Take one thought with you. The future discloses God's ideal for mankind and not the past. We are also told that in Christ there is no male or female, Jew or Greek, slave or free.
Quote :
Gal 3:26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.
Gal 3:27 For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham's Seed], then you are Abraham's offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.
Quote :
Col 3:11 [In this new creation all distinctions vanish.] There is no room for and there can be neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, [nor difference between nations whether alien] barbarians or Scythians [who are the most savage of all], nor slave or free man; but Christ is all and in all [everything and everywhere, to all men, without distinction of person].
Comment welcome.
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Newborn



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:11 pm

Think maybe God hates women. Seems like some men do in the Church. Leave me feeling bad to be a woman.


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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:02 pm

God designed you to be a woman on purpose. He really loves you. He has a special plan for you.

It is important to fellowship with believers who will build you up and not break you down.

Some Churches follow traditions rather than the Word of God. Don't let that discourage you. God never rejects you no matter how bad some people can make you feel.

Ask God to lead you to the right place to fellowship. Not all Churches are like that. Those that value the Word of God try very hard to love everyone no matter how imperfect. You can find people like that. Preople who will allow you to be imperfect. You must also allow them to be imperfect. Love covers a multitude of sins.
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Newborn



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:55 pm

Jesus He choose to come as a man
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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:07 pm

Do you mean: Instead of a woman?
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Newborn



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:58 pm

Yes. Male superior. No good He be a woman
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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:21 pm

Newborn, I love your direst questions from the heart.

I think He came exactly in the form that would get the job done.

Yes, He came as a man. That is fit and right to me. I say it not out of cultural conditioning but from a thinking position. He could not have got the job done as a woman in a world of sin. Sin had structured a woman as socially inferior. I don;t think this whole male female thing is as important to God as it is to us because he sees difference and value in both genders. The Holy Spirit I think is the gentlest side of the Godhead but inferior in no way... but protected by both the Father and the Son from being dishonoured. I think we will get to see ourselves as women more in line with something like that in time. Gender jokes that dishonour women will disappear from the Church.

Jesus is called the second Adam. Adam sinned without being deceived. He chose to sin. We are all now born into sin. Jesus died and paid the price for that sin. The second Adam redeemed us from what the first Adam did to all mankind. He brought all those who believe into righteousness. Adam was a man. The second Adam was a man too. This doesn't make men superior or inferior.
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Kim



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:57 pm

Know what is good here? We can really talk without rejection and being labeled as feminist by a Church group of men. Women have been made afraid to talk out. Even some Scriptures seem to empower men to keep us quiet but it seems now they misinterpreted. I have struggled with this for a long time but never felt free enough to talk about it. I don’t hate men. But I don’t always like the way I am treated because I am a woman.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:00 pm

My experience too. For a woman to speak out boldly in debate with a man can get some strange dynamics started. Let a man do the same and it is not there. I was in a meeting just the other day and one male ego after another was preaching about not being proud and walking in love and yet the very knee-jerk reaction being displayed was founded in pride. I call it “Boy’s Club”.


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Allegra



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:38 pm

Good description. It’s like a boys club at church sometimes, but subtle.
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Kim



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:03 pm

I looked up chauvinism and it said: Activity indicative of belief in the superiority of men over women. So that is what it is. There is chauvinism in the Church.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:53 pm

It is not blatant chauvinism. It is cloaked as authority, but not Biblically authorized authority. Each man in the Church has not been given authority over all women in the Church.
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Kim



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:42 pm

You know we have gotten so used to it that even though we recognize it somewhere in our minds we just take it as normal.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:13 pm

Yes. It is cultural – we are born into it - and it has infiltrated the Church. It is not perceived until you are perceived to have crossed the line into male-ego territory. It is when there is a call on a woman’s life that the conflict is more seriously felt. Touch the male sense of position and the ranks are closed. This should not be in the Church. As a woman I don’t belong in a Boy’s Club. As a woman I belong in a Church; a Church that correctly recognizes God’s call on women too. But I don’t want to be misunderstood as a feminist with a hard-core agenda. Wherever I find myself I will not force my will or opinion of such things on the leadership. If it is opened as a debate topic then I have the freedom to speak out, but merely to resist the leadership as an act of insubordination would not be good. Honouring authority is important - even if in error in some way - I must honour the position of authority. I have been advised to establish what the status quo is, and if it is quenching to the call on my life then to go where it is not quenched.
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Allegra



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:12 pm

What are you saying?
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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:52 pm

I am trying to describe how it should be so that a women is not made to feel of less value than a man within the normal functioning of Church life. A Church is filled with Believer’s where male/female is not the criteria …. love of all people, as people redeemed by God, is the criteria. We are all believers. We are all joint heirs with Christ. In Christ there is not male or female, Jew or Greek, slave or free. No special favour for one above the other. When I miss it as a Believer, who happens to be a woman, then lovingly correct me as a Believer. Use the same standards of grace whether male or female. And do not close ranks as men.
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Kim



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:33 am

What happened?
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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:40 am

I suppose it would be helpful to describe specific experience. This does seem to have developed and needs clarity to make it worthwhile. This kind of situation happened to me in a meeting that had supposedly been opened to debate by the leader. But that wasn’t really so. The leader wanted control and came from the standpoint that he had all the answers and the rest were in his class and had to guess what was written on his paper. I debated some things he said. I didn’t think his arguments were all that convincing and do enjoy pushing for truth that will stand. It could have turned into a really fun evening of genuine learning, but the leader took offence. His neat little pat answers were not holding up well. Add to that a woman debating as an equal is hard for some men beyond a certain point. Men debating men when the floor is opened are not subject to this whole gender dynamic. Women are usually quiet in such meetings because it can be very intimidating. Pride was strong in the room that night. From me too. I was being as arrogant as anyone else there. Pride is like riding a hard wave – it takes you strong and fast and then dumps you into trouble. Hindsight is always so wise! And when I sensed male antagonism I became antagonistic too. It turned into playing the person [me] rather than playing the ball [the subject]. And it was done very self-righteously. I watched knee-jerk reactions come from some males in the room – all led from the front. It became clear that the motivation was to take me down hard and fast, and it was only males who saw it as their duty to do this. I lost confidence in the leader that night. He got defensive and his attitude hardened. His example is not one I want to learn from. Debate can so easily denigrate into going after the person when argument is weak. I have seen this happen time and again. Newborn is right: if you are a woman you cannot afford to be flawed in such a situation. Problem is we are…. very …. all still learning. We all need to be afforded the same measure of grace to learn and move on
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Kim



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:14 am

Ouch
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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:43 am

Smile Yes, it was ouch. But good ouch. I am always surprised at how much pride I really have. My reactions are the most telling. And pride is death to a love walk. I hate pride in me…. and the first thing that pride in me wants to do when found out is to hide. I asked the Lord to judge me in the here and now before I stand before Him one day. So this is all good. In the meeting I got irritated with what was being said, and how it was being said to a woman [me], and wanted to have my say. But God keeps teaching me. And I am so grateful for that. I sure take a long time to learn! I am very glad He is so patient. He has been so gentle with me in opening up my understanding about it all; given me the unction to still keep trying. If He had just left me where I was after that meeting I would have just felt smashed down and rejected. It was a strange experience coming from someone called to love the people. I just expected better. And it echoed in others with the same flaw so that they felt free to support him. He is flawed too, not just me. Have to allow him to be so. But it was not a good example coming from a platform of authority in a Church. It breaks trust because it is ego and not love that is involved. In the meeting I was wrestling over the subject matter but a swing occurred and this new dynamic entered; playing the person rather than the ball. Suddenly my attitude became the focus – not directly but pointedly – my pride was suddenly the highlight and the preach was how it should all be done without pride and in love. Axes were being ground. That I saw no love or humility being demonstrated was irrelevant it seemed. I became aware of certain males putting the female in her acceptable place.

Just a storm in a tea-cup, but if I cannot trust my heart as a woman to leadership in what is small, then they will surely fail me in what is important. And life can be too tough at times to knowingly expose myself and my son to that. We are told to guard our hearts. Wisdom sets up healthy boundries.
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Kim



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:10 am

As a single woman I am in agreement. Need to know who is really trustworthy.

So really chauvinism is carnality.
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Allegra



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:03 am

Your right. It is harder to speak out as a woman because not always sure it is OK.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:05 am

Yes, chauvinism is carnality, but not always recognized as such in the Church, because of the mantle of authority seen as Biblical. Some men don’t feel like men unless they are controlling – usually by domination. But domination is not God’s way. Domination, intimidation and manipulation are of Satan. To use these methods to control is witchcraft. Love does not seek to control another. But we all do some of this if you think about it. In fact it is everywhere. Anytime we try to force our will on another we are doing one of these forms of control.
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Allegra



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PostSubject: Re: What is Gods design for women?   Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:16 am

Heavy!
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